Dr. Daniel Cruz Lattimore, an independent consultant and millennial leader, provides coaching, consultation, and assessment to executives and their teams in higher education, healthcare, and other organizational settings. His consulting emphasis is effective communication, purposeful diversity, equity, inclusion, and accessibility, organization development, and empathic leadership.
A graduate of the University of Memphis Counseling Psychology Doctoral program, Dr. Lattimore recently completed a postdoctoral fellowship at the Cincinnati Veterans Affairs Medical Center. He also uses his creativity to innovate research with underrepresented populations.
Today, he speaks with Dr. Karen about workplace issues such as Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Accessibility (DEIA), ways to connect the generations, and unique challenges for people of color.
Contact Dr. Lattimore at Daniel.c.lattimore@gmail.com or find him on LinkedIn under Daniel Cruz Lattimore.
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Listen to the podcast here
Dr. Daniel Lattimore: DEIA And How To Better Connect The Generations At Work [Episode 465]
Dr. Daniel Cruz Lattimore, an independent consultant and millennial leader, provides coaching, consultation, and assessment to executives and their teams in higher education, healthcare, and other organizational settings.
We’re talking about how to better connect the generations in the workplace. The workplace is multi-generational, and often, the older generation speaks a different language from the younger generations. What can all the generations do to better connect and bridge the generation gaps, and what are the advantages of working together? My guest is a millennial leader who has valuable perspectives on how to better connect the generations and also understanding the unique challenges for people of color in the workplace.
Dr. Daniel Cruz-Lattimore specializes in organization development, interprofessional team-based care, and social networking in education, healthcare, and organizational settings. He graduated from the University of Memphis Counseling Psychology doctoral program and recently completed a postdoctoral fellowship at the Cincinnati Veterans Affairs Medical Center. His mission is to encourage relationships through compassion and strategy and use his creativity and consideration to innovate research with underrepresented populations.
As an independent consultant, he also provides coaching, consultation, and assessment to executive leaders and their teams on effective communication, purposeful diversity, equity, inclusion, and accessibility, and empathetic leadership. He is passionate about helping individuals, groups, communities, and organizations thrive. When he’s not working, Daniel engages in pro bono services to local community-led initiatives in the greater Cincinnati area. He also enjoys improvisational theater and time at home with his wife and two cats. Welcome, Dr. Daniel to the Voice of Leadership and to Dr. Karen Speaks Leadership.
Thanks for having me, Dr. Karen.
It’s a delight to have you here. I know that you have a lot of great information to share with the community. I’m going to start out with just our first question. Are you ready?
I’m ready.
The Power Of Organizational Development For A Thriving Workplace
Dr. Daniel, you’ve worked at at least three different VA hospitals, Memphis, Iowa City, and most recently Cincinnati. As part of the time at Cincinnati VA, you worked in their National Center for Organization Development. What is organization development first? Tell us that. What was the nature of the organization development work that you did while at the VA?
Thank you for the question. We’ll first address the organization development. That is really highlighting an organization’s techniques or structure as it pertains to organizational change. It’s really the inner mechanisms that could look like key work, that could look like selection and hiring processes, that could look like just trying to get a pulse on how the group is doing, how your organization is doing, and its work groups. How its leadership is connecting with its managers or with its front-facing team. It’s really all-encompassing.
Leadership Challenges: Understanding The Generational Divide
You mentioned that organization development is about the processes and systems that are in place and particularly during a change initiative, or something of that sort. Tell us a little bit about the leadership challenges that you have seen, particularly between the generations, whether it be at the VA or even other work settings where you may have worked. What was going on between the generations and what was causing some of those divides?
What a number of organizations might experience is the communication of leadership, of its vision, of its mission, and of its values. When you’re in that onboarding process, is that conveyed to the employees that you’re onboarding is that embedded in all of the tasks, any projects that are being done amongst the team is that transparent, is that a way that people can connect it without having to do much mental math? I think what happens in terms of problems is that it becomes a disconnect. People don’t see how their tasks are meaningful to the organization or they don’t see the meaning in it for themselves. A lot of it really comes down to the communication of what’s being done and doesn’t connect.
One of the pieces that you’re talking about is that sometimes maybe the generations might communicate in different ways. Of course, whether you’re dealing with a multi-generational workforce or not, communicating in such a way that people see themselves and how they fit into the bigger picture is important. Say a little bit more about the generations themselves and how they might communicate and maybe sometimes be like ships passing through the night. They might miss each other because of different communication styles.
What we’ve seen from more seasoned leaders is that the work is the value. That just hard work might be the value and don’t you get merit, don’t you get a sense of purpose from the work? What we’re seeing amongst just millennials or even Gen Z is that they’re hoping to see more of a connection to what their values are, to see if they can bring authenticity to the workspace. I’ve seen a number of organizations ask for their authentic selves, but what they really mean to say is that they want it as it serves the larger mission and value of the organization. That might be a piece of the passing shifts you’re talking about is that we might be using similar words, different connotations.
Millennials or even Gen Zs are hoping to see more of a connection to what their values are, to see if they can bring authenticity to the workspace. Click To TweetThat’s a great one because in terms of the older generation, which I always refer to as the baby boomer generation, which is my generation, but even I think X is getting up there too as well. A lot of the baby boomers are gone from the workplace and those of us who remain are pretty much older folks for sure. In any case, but what I’ll say about this is that younger leaders, you’re saying they want to connect in terms of the purpose or meaning to their own purpose and meaning, not just to the work itself and to the organization. Say a little bit more about what younger leaders are looking for and what they want and maybe how the older generation can talk about these issues in a way that connects better.
I know that not all leaders are the same and that’ll sit across the board for seasoned leaders and maybe up-and-coming leaders. More oftentimes than not, I think we’re looking for what is the need that we’re trying to fulfill in this moment. If people see that more external motivator that, “We’re here to get the wicket or here to get the cogs.” It’s not tied to a larger sense of purpose or meaning that it fulfills you internally or even advocates for the people it works for that might be a disconnect.
When you think more broadly, what else do younger leaders want when they’re in the workplace? They clearly want some sense of meaning and purpose. What else do they want?
Meaning and purpose. I also go back to connection and connectivity. I have had a lot of life events that have, I would say, erred on the side of being siloed or disconnected from one another. Here we are talking on an online platform and we are connected and this is getting the job done. Also, other facets of connectivity that cannot always be met through a scheduled session or meeting. What are some of the ways that season leaders are communicating that connection is important?
How much investment do you have into my personal life as well as my professional life? We know that people are spending at least eight hours on work or work-related activities per day. They’re actually spending time away from their families or outside of their personal spaces. They could be even at home but if I’m locked away in a corner for eight hours or so, might need to find that work-life balance more. I really think leaders now could at least be transparent on ways that they are considering work-life balance and work-life integration.
I think that’s really significant. You’re saying that in essence, the younger generations are looking at life more holistically. They’re not just a person at work doing work and they want the workplace, their leaders to care about their whole lives, whether that be work-life balance, something that might be going on in their personal lives, and the meaning that we already talked about. There’s a deeper, if you will, connection, a way of relating to people that’s important from what you’re saying to the younger generations.
Although it’s great to be on Zoom, there are other ways they want to connect besides that as well. It’s a bit more intimate along the way. When you think about it, what is it that drives the younger generations? When you think about clients you’ve seen, people you saw in your other workplaces, what is it that drives them crazy, the younger generations about the baby boomer leadership?
I say it drives them crazy. I think there is listening to understand, and then there’s listening to respond. More leaders are starting to open themselves more to a vulnerable space or that empathic space of connection. Sometimes when we consider factors like employee voice, and then there is no voice, so you might see a survey for your company.
It’s like, how are you communicating that you are implementing that feedback because you might see dips and you might be scratching your head to say, “What’s going on?” If people have a voice, what’s going on and then nothing becomes of it or you’re not seeing that change or not seeing it addressed in real-time. It’s possible that people are listening to respond rather than understand. I know it’s been a headache for several leaders that I’ve consulted with. I’ll probably stick with that answer.
One of the things I’m hearing in what you said is that younger generations like to participate really in the work environment and to shape some of what happens. They don’t want to be in the old school thing of like seen and not heard and they want their voice to matter. If they’re recommending something or suggesting a way forward, they at least want to hear back about how that input was considered. How it was implemented or if it wasn’t implemented, maybe some of the reasons why it wasn’t implemented. They don’t want to just be in a black hole where somebody in the corner office made some decisions and never reported back about what they heard and what they did.
I have a mentor that talks about a thermometer in the room. He says, “Let’s say it’s 70 degrees. In the room, you have someone that’s saying it’s too hot. You have someone saying it’s too cold and all of that can be data, right? It’s not that you want to change the temperature, but you’re at least getting how people are responding to it.” One of those kinds of flagships of good leadership are what are you doing about it? You might not have changed the temperature because you had to land somewhere and there was no making everyone happy, but at least illuminate people to your process because if you don’t say anything on it, people just see that you didn’t act.
The Value Of Younger Generations: Fresh Perspectives And Adaptability
That conveys a different message than what you want to have conveyed. They’ll make up their own stories about why you didn’t act. It won’t even be close to what the truth is in the situation. Since we’ve been talking about younger generations, what is it that the younger generations are bringing to the workplace that’s valuable? Let’s find out what that is. What have you seen?
I think with younger generations, they are interacting with this new world, whether that’s through technology, whether that’s through new laws that are passed. I’m in my early thirties when I hear things about social security and things that are on my schedule for another 30 years, all I can do is sit and watch and hope that the people in place will leave me something that I can jump into. It’s a want to be involved.
It’s a want to have a voice. It’s a want to say like, “I’m a part of this too.” Whether that be my identity as part of the company, whether that be my identity as a family person. It’s just that I matter and I hold space. If leaders can make time for that platform in space so that they’re listening to their younger counterparts or even maybe adjacent counterparts, that is a flagship for what we see as organizations that thrive.
Let’s say a little bit more about what it is that the younger generations are bringing. They are looking at the new world through the lenses of different tools, more techy type tools, for example, and they’re in different places and spaces, so they can see where the market is moving. Talk a little bit more about some maybe specific examples of what they’re bringing to the workplace. That somebody like me, I might not see it. I might not be paying attention to it because I may not be on those same tools or be in those same spaces.
When we talked about organization development, we talked about organizational change. I think that leaders who have established practices are not there because of their strengths. They probably have things that they’ve learned. They have things that they wouldn’t do again. They have things that help them to build and grow. I think with younger generations, there is that willingness. There’s that willingness to build and grow. Additionally, if you’re wanting a sense of legacy, you want to in continuation, you’re going to want someone who experiences those changes in real-time.
You’re going to want someone who knows how to interact with a younger fan base, a younger customer base. You’re going to want someone who has a different point of view than you because that has been proven to cultivate growth and expansion, which I would imagine is what leaders want. Now, if you don’t want that, if you want things to stay the same, then I would say, don’t engage the younger core. If you like things just the way they are, that’s what it will be. I think there’s a lot of merit and growth in interacting with younger generations.
There's a lot of merit and growth in interacting with younger generations. Click To TweetAs you were talking about, if you don’t want things to change and to grow and be different, I was thinking about the buggy whip organization, because after a while, people no longer need buggy whips. You got to move with the times, if you will. One of the things you’re saying is that younger people are willing to learn, they’re willing to grow, to step into these new places, to look down the path, to see what might be coming that maybe someone else might not see what’s coming down the pike and therefore wouldn’t prepare for it because they’re not looking at it.
They don’t have a line of sight on it. You’re also saying that there are younger customers in businesses and having someone who can relate to the younger customers is also critical and important. Share maybe Daniel some examples with us about what you have seen, let’s say in the workplace about let’s say some younger generation people that really did make a difference. If they hadn’t been there, the organization would have missed it.
I would say one organization brought up questions of how to increase with customer base, and how to increase its membership. The board consisted of, let’s say on average people who were, I’ll say 55 and up. They were scratching their heads, “How do we address this?” Everyone on that board likely had twenty-plus years of experience and was saying, “This is how I would tackle increasing membership, increasing our revenue, our customer base.” 1 or 2 people suggested, “How about we get some younger minds into the space into our board meetings or what have you?
As you said earlier, we don’t know. We might be having blind spots.” What happened was you had two people be brought on at the student level. They mentioned just bringing in a wealth of knowledge about existing social media platforms, but also that they themselves are taking share in the services, but just from a student level. That gives you insight into what are these students experience. Everyone on the board had been a student at one point, but what might’ve differed was about 40 years, just understanding that those trends can differ.
If you can align, what your purpose is and then be open to hearing the voices of students that you bring in these new ideas. That organization saw a significant percentage of increased membership from their students alone. While it might not have increased the revenue as they would have thought, they started to focus more on what is the longevity of our organization. What might that look like for programming in the future?
Where might be able to partner with students in a way that still gives them pays them their worth, but it might not look like capital. It might look like it’s opportunities for exposure. Now you also get to use that as part of your own branding that you are open, that you’re increasing your sense of accessibility across your population. That you’re increasing your sense of belonging.
The example that you’re sharing is about a professional association. It’s always a challenge for associations and thinking about membership. How do they remain relevant? How do they keep the members they have, but attract new members and maybe new members from different demographics? What you’re saying is that bringing the younger voices into the room brought up new ways to reach people and to connect so that those other demographics could be more easily reached. If I had been in the room, I might be talking about email and there may not be one email or maybe I’d be talking about landline phones if not paying attention to landline phones.
There’s a very different way of communicating and connecting in the different generations and having the people right there at the table. They know what those ways are top of mind for them. Rather than guessing, having the people at the table could make a difference for the future is what I hear you saying. You also in your case served as a community domain leader in that organization. You really had to think about how do you connect with people in the community. What did you learn about that and what did you see in that role?
As it serves for the community domain, I really thought to ask all of our members what was important to them and just by attending these sessions from people of all ages and creeds. What was the need that needed to be filled by our board, by our division? I think by and large, it was one resource people are always open to being lifelong learners and resources, these resources might have existed, but where they connected to them, did they know where to find these resources? That would be a short answer of, “Check this website or stay plugged into our Listserv.”
What we were also finding was a sense of connection is that a lot of people are navigating this road into maybe constructing their own businesses, feeling like it might be too late to transition into consulting psychology. What we can do is connect you to other people who are doing this work. People who have similar interests. That does not feel like it’s burdened so much onto your shoulders to figure out but to understand that you have a community of people who scare that mission and vision and might just approach it in a different way. Rather than saying, “But we said and.”
Mentorship And Legacy: The Benefits Of Cross-Generational Collaboration
I love that said and recognizing that if you have a diversity of people in the organization, you really can connect them so that they can partner together for mutual benefits. Suppose you’re really looking at one of let’s say older generation members of the association who’s now connecting to a younger member who’s trying to build their practice or business. We can see very easily the advantage for the younger person because they’re going to learn what to do, some landmines to avoid and so on. What about for that older member? What might be some of the advantages for them and making these kinds of connections?
It really ties into the value that older leaders receive from being in the profession. Got to talk with some students about what I consider art. The art being when you’re up and coming, you’re hungry, you’re trying to make your way, you’re trying to get your feet so that you can make the money and get your position. Once you’ve gotten the position, once you’ve gotten the money, what else is there?
You might feel fulfilled. You might feel some step back from, “I did those things. What else is there about? Why did I choose this? What’s the why for me?” What you’re alluding to Dr. Karen is really mentorship. It’s a sense of being able to pass this on to future generations. It’s legacy. It’s a sense of I’ve put in this work and I want to share it with someone because again, I think with a sense of community, it can feel isolating. Ultimately, I feel that we all have that human capacity for connection.
We all have that human capacity for connection. Click To TweetYou’re talking about something very important to those of us who are in the older generations because we know we’re not going to be in the workplace forever. It’s just a matter of a few short years in our cases before we’ll be out. I think that the legacy piece is important and the knowledge transfer to somebody who can carry the baton onto the next X number of years. Particularly, I’ll share this from a personal perspective.
I’m particularly interested in the consulting psychologists who have a Christian perspective, which is a smaller group and those are people who I’m prioritizing to mentor going forward so that therefore they have what I didn’t have. There were no mentors back in my day for going in that direction. In fact, people say, “What? Christian psychologists, that doesn’t even go together.” It was a hard way to go back in the day. I’d like to be able to share with those who are wanting to do that now going forward.
Legacy is important to those of us who are exiting sooner out of the workplace. Thank you for even mentioning that. We’ve been talking a little bit about what the issues are. What else would you like to add about what either the younger generations could do to connect more, let’s say corporate settings, to add value? Walue that the organization would see as value. What can they do to facilitate, let’s say, greater and deeper connection or anything else more that you think the older generation can also do to facilitate connection?
I first start with younger generations. I think that oftentimes because there can be a power dynamic in the room younger generations are tending to look to make their way or make their space so that insinuates that they are on the outside looking in and trying to get in. I would first advocate for younger generations to really own what they bring to the table. Just learning to advocate or market themselves.
If I cannot see the value in myself, I don’t know how I can convey that to others. I see it from experience, it’s a thing a lot of imposter syndrome you fight at first, but once you do a lot of self-awareness and a lot of understanding of why you do it, you can bring that version of you to the forefront. In turn, I would say for older or seasoned leaders what is it that they’re wanting to bring? If you can convey that you’re open to hearing other voices or that you’re wanting to hear these fresh perspectives, it’s almost like a manifestation.
If you say it enough times and believe it enough times that it might exist in your space but we cannot get past it, no one can read minds. It’s that you have to say it and you have to be transparent with that message across your organization, across your work group, that you’re looking for this, you’re wanting to hear more perspectives, you’re wanting to involve folks. I think that’s a two-way street in communication.
There’s the openness to hear the new perspective and inviting the perspective. There’s also for the younger generation of people to recognize they have something to offer and to stand in the power of that, not hide out if you will, along the way. I’m going to add another little tidbit that I think can be helpful and for the younger generations to think about in the workplace. If let’s say you have a baby boomer boss, they’re caring about something that’s related to the mission of that organization.
Baby Boom was very work-focused. That’s the heritage that we have. I think if whatever you’re suggesting and recommending as a younger generation team member, find a way to demonstrate and connect that new idea with what that baby boomer person really is trying to make happen. When you are able to say, “I see that you want to do X. This is what’s really important to you.” Now you show how your A, B, and C gets to their X.
That gets the baby boomer’s attention because they know that you’re on the same wavelength. You may be using different tools, but they see the alignment in wanting to go in a similar direction or even if it’s a different direction. You have a reason for that different direction that you’re able to articulate that still achieves the end goal for that baby boomer person. Whether it be increasing customers or increasing members of the professional association or whatever it might be. I’ll just fill that in.
Well said. If our younger generations can discern for themselves what their value is and what they get out of working or what they hope to accomplish, if they can identify where those overlaps are, I think there could be that willingness from the seasoned leader to work collaboratively on this mission to share that vision. Again, I think we use these in the caveats that we have a leader that’s open to hearing it. We have a younger worker that’s open to collaboration. Sometimes it works. It happens where they’re not in alignment and we don’t want to try to use an icebreaker or team building exercise when people are very daunch into the value that they have. Sometimes it’s needing to let that go but it just comes to expertise and listening to your intuition to decide.
Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, And Accessibility (DEIA): Creating A Welcoming Workplace
You have to use the right tool at the right time. Sometimes pre-work is necessary. You cannot always jump in at the deep end of the pool. We might have to start in the three-feet water for a little bit in order to get up to the 10-foot or the 12-foot. Absolutely. Dr. Daniel, you and I were talking about diversity and diversity work in organizations. I can remember back in the day when we just had one letter, that letter was D and it was diversity. Now it’s diversity, equity, inclusion, and accessibility. Break that down for us. What do those words mean? Tell us a little bit about what you’ve worked on in the DEIA space.
When we talk about diversity, it’s acknowledging the individual pieces that make up an organization, so person A, person B, person C, person D. They might all come from different backgrounds and different creeds. They might work for the same organization, but it’s a recognition that they’re four different people. When we talk about equity, we’re talking about, yes, you might think of a hiring practice that you’ve brought them all on, that they’re working for your organization. Maybe C had to work twice as hard to get to the same place that A did.
When we talk about diversity, it’s acknowledging the individual pieces that make up an organization. Click To TweetThat’s where equity comes in. It’s understanding that with their backgrounds or understanding what might be some of the barriers that some folks came in with that others did not. More often times than not, the example is with race. If you look into the percentages of what someone who identifies as Black or African-American is making or the same job as maybe a White counterpart, is that an equal standing? Is it unequal? That’s something that we have to take a look at. That’s what we talk about equity is just being aware of what people are bringing in and their experiences.
When we talk about inclusion, it really gives a kinship to the sense of voice we talked about. If we’re all in the room, man understanding that everyone in the room could get voice to what this idea or thought process is just as high as the head of a board could be or head of an organization and some of the youngest members. It could be someone with 30 years of experience, it could be a student, it could be someone early in their career but understanding that you’re wanting to hear all the voices in the room. Simply put, one person cannot know everything.
We all have our blind spots. When we talk about the A, accessibility, just understanding that some people have areas to even getting to that space. A little different from the equity piece, but understanding that if there are routes that you might take, other people might take a separate route. One example of that is being the presence of an elevator. If we have a meeting on the fourth floor and the elevator is broken and someone is needing that elevator to get to the fourth floor, who can make that space and who cannot?
That’s just an example of consideration, or does everyone have accessibility? Even on this Zoom call, this could be a way that if people have standing Wi-Fi if they have a laptop with a good screen and good lighting, then we can talk accessibility across the board, but just being mindful of making sure everyone can access these resources.
Good. What are some examples about the DEIA work that you have done in organizations. Give us a story of something, an example.
I think it really comes in terms of advocacy for hiring and selection processing, I did work within higher education and consultation. What it looked like was they were looking to hire another professor for their team and just looking into traditionally what the makeup of the workgroup of our college. We’re looking to increase hiring or diversity within our hiring practices.
That can be an in-depth look at what does selection looks like. What does retention look like of people who might identify as minority or underrepresented? What policies and procedures exist for that faculty, for that group? What does the school say about it? What does the university say about its retention and its mission and its value? Do the actions align with the mission and vision?
If we’re looking into, “We’ve not had someone who identifies as a minority, as a professor for the past ten years.” If the people that we’ve hired are not staying longer than two, then we might need to look into what those hiring practices look like. What the culture look like? What our organization’s mission and values are? Just revisiting those. What does leadership look like? I think that is one example of the DEIA work.
What if the organization says back to you in the example you mentioned like it’s been ten years or people are leaving and say, “We have our practices in place and our objective is to get the best people. We’re using tools, their state-of-the-art. These are the people who are coming.” Suppose they say that.
I have heard that. I think it’s a revisit to how dedicated are you to truly making this a diverse, equitable, inclusive, and
accessible space. Some people do say the buck stops here. We’ve done everything. You’ve looked into our practices, but bring it back to, we don’t know what we don’t know. We all have blind spots, but sometimes it can be who organizations to look externally.
Sometimes they say, “We’ve used internal practices.” If this is something that you’re dedicated to and you do and you want to make part of your mission and vision, it might look to be an external investment. Just understanding getting with self and understanding or asking, “What is my own level of self-awareness? Have I done any outside work to continue my own competency in these areas? Am I comfortable where I am?”
That’s an answer too. If you are comfortable where you are, then people are fine leaving it at that. I would say if people wanted to continue to understand more about making this a more diverse, equitable, inclusive, accessible space, you do need to focus even on the I part of including more voices that are not similar to your own.
The Power Of Diversity: Why It Matters For Business Success
That’s a very good point. The point is that it may look to you like you’re using the best tools and that you’re doing everything possible. However, there may be things you don’t know, and there could be some other tools out there. It’s interesting thinking about it in that way because people don’t always see themselves in the mirror as they are. I guess I’ll put it this way. They may not understand the value of diversity, equity, and inclusion. Just say a word about that. Why is it important for me to have this diverse organization? What am I going to gain as the business executive with a diverse group as opposed to maybe a group that’s less diverse?
I think there is an internal and external answer and I will expand. Externally, people will say, “What? Does it matter? What this component is.” We are seeing more and more companies. We’re seeing the effects of them not investing in diversity, equity and inclusion. We see news stories come out about people who are underrepresented either walking away from their position or bringing up all kinds of liability because they didn’t feel like it was an inclusive space.
It wasn’t DEIA-aligned. That’s one reason is for the press. That’s why I say it’s external because it’s something that is an outside force. Now internally, it’s going to require some vulnerability. I would dip into the empathic leader. If you want to be growing, evolving if that is a value of yours constantly grow. People don’t look at to themselves and say, “I’ve done all the growing I can do. There’s nothing else that anyone can teach me.” It’s a question of, “What don’t I know? What might else be out there? Why would it be important for me to do DEIA?”
I don’t know if I can give an answer to folks except to say that would be an internal process. I know that a lot of what you and I talk about is just becoming lifelong learners. A lot of self-awareness. Knowing why we do the things we do, whether it’s faith-led and faith-motivated, or if it’s just that growing is one of your values is that I would challenge, or gently challenge folks to ask that question of themselves, why might this be important?
I know, a lot of business executives, they care about the success of the company. Let’s say my company is successful so far and we’re financially where we want to be, we’ve got customers that we love and everything’s going great. What do I need diversity for? We’re pretty much 98% White and then it’s okay.
I sitting here as a Black male couldn’t tell you that your strategy isn’t working or it’s not that it’s the difference seems to be successful by those measures of revenue or through keeping your business alive. I would then ask, “In what capacity would they seek this out? This is my own personal thought process. If people are seeking these resources, they’re watching a Dr. Karen episode and where they can make space for young folks. It’s that they’re open to the process.
They’re open to knowing what I might like, “Dr. Daniel, I don’t know about it.” I won’t hold it against you if you don’t know about it. I appreciate you coming to the space to educate yourself further on it. I commend you. I think that what gets in the way of people moving forward is this anxious mindset that they’re going to get it wrong. I would say that it’s not about getting it wrong, but it’s that you try. Not that you tried, but that you are trying. It’s that you’re wanting to understand. You’re wanting to learn.
What gets in the way of people moving forward is this anxious mindset that they're going to get it wrong. It's not about getting it wrong, but it's that you are trying Click To TweetIn psychology, there is this principle that we have with kids or babies and maybe those who are outside of psychology, if I hide my face from a baby, they cannot see it. We might play peekaboo and we know that the face is there. The baby might not. At some level, isn’t it possible that there are things that we cannot see, but they still exist? I think that it really pulls on that curiosity, that willingness to learn, willingness to grow.
What you’re saying now makes me think about this reality. Although I’m doing very well in my business, this 98% right today, what I don’t know is to what extent that will continue into tomorrow. I have to be willing to look at the future and will I continue to be able to attract all the talent I want to attract? Will I be able to continue to get all the customers that I want doing what I’m doing today? Maybe I need to that curiosity you’re talking about. Maybe I need to tap into it because there’s probably something I don’t know that would make me even more successful tomorrow. It’s being willing to consider, that could I be missing something. By the time I figure it out, it might be too late to turn the train around, so to speak.
For sure. I mean, it’s a risk. There’s a lot of risk. There’s a lot of unknown leaders often have to make that decision of, do I stay, do I keep things the same or do I look to change, I look to evolve. Do I look to grow? It is something that leaders have to weigh out for themselves, for the good of their company. It comes to that risk and reward. Maybe this does tap into serving more than a homogenous group or a group that’s very similar. Maybe there is some merit in expansion and looking at ourselves in a different way or reinventing our brand.
Additional Challenges For Young People Of Color In The Workplace
I want to get to something before we end, when we’re talking about the generations earlier and the different generations, what about people of color who are in the younger generation, what additional challenges or issues might they face also in dealing with the baby boomer ex-generation bosses and so on? What other layer might also be there?
Younger generations are not without looking at our steamed older seasoned mentors. We see how you operated and we say, “There’s honor. There might be respect for the way they did it. It may be not that long ago that you went your own way. You did your own thing.” I think for younger leaders of color, there’s just a recognition that we want to do things our way. We want to be self-starters or we want to continue that process.
It might not look like the way you did it, but the roots and the bones are still there. I think of like dance crazes now, people are putting all kinds of things together, but there are also TikToks of older generations saying, “That’s not we call this. It’s the same thing. It’s just got a different twist.” I think we’re a lot similar in ways and people give credit for and we just have to honor the growth process that we’re looking for change. We’re looking to have something that we can take a stake in, make our own.
The corporate executives who may have younger generation people who are also people of color in the organization, what else do they need to be mindful of that those individuals may be experiencing that’s even different from their younger generation white counterparts?
Something that we could get people into is that concept of microaggression. We talk about historical when we think of racism, we think of maybe an over blatant act that is discriminatory based off of someone’s race or their gender, etc. When we talk microaggression, it’s that it’s this more nuanced way of existence, or it might be this nuance messaging that’s not still overt. If you have a policy that talks about hair, that’s one that we’ve seen is that you have to have your hair in a professional space because it conveys a certain message to customers.
It’s just being able to question that and say, “Does someone’s hair really take away from a messaging or am I willing to have that conversation because this is how they’ve chosen to express themselves? Does that expression sit outside of the values of the company? Does it throw off the mission and vision because they decided to wear it in a natural pro or to wear it bravely?”
I speak mostly off of African-American culture because that’s where I come from but just an understanding that there are different walks. There are different experiences between the two. I would say like a good captain-engaged leader would understand back to that there’s a person A, person B, person C, and person D that people have different experiences. Just maybe being open to the question of what are these different experiences of my team.
One of the things I’m hearing is that a person of color might face that the organization has already defined professional as excluding something that is natural and common to them, whether it be like I’m wearing my hair in locks or this is in a locked setting. What if I came to work and they said, “We don’t allow locks whatever.” Again, it’s the subtlety of how a majority perspective can have people thinking that one thing is professional and another thing it’s not. That may not be true. You may have to question some of those assumptions is what I’m hearing from that example. That’s a very good example about something different that people might have to deal with that the White counterparts don’t have to deal with. Yeah, absolutely.
An example I could give real quick is, if a leader decided to give their team a toiletry bag and the toiletry bag had mouthwash, toothbrush, you name it, a fingernail clipper, and then also a comb. You might think, “This is a nice gift or gesture to give to all my people, to people on my team, but is this one of the fine-toothed combs or is this a pick? I don’t know if the small comb would work with my hair, but if you had something that was considerate of my hairstyle, or if you asked me, then that might convey that you’re at least considering how I might be different than my other counterparts.”
That’s a really good example actually, about the comb. The first thing I’m thinking about is, “Is there any lotion in that thing?” Certainly, as African-American people, that’s important to us, but other people might not need it. You know what I’m saying? Just to be considerate. I won’t take too much time with this, but I know that when I was at West Point and the women were at the Academy at the time and still in relatively small numbers and they would receive their little toiletry kit at the beginning when they checked in and it had an athletic supporter in there which they didn’t need.
Some things they did need were not in the bag. When I was there in my role as the psychologist for the cadets, we addressed that issue and made some changes. Let’s just put it that way. That’s a really good example of how not considering the different needs of the diverse people who are in your organization.
If I may point out with that example, you not only spoke to the gender differences but also being the level of a cadet to your superior. I think that’s a great example of how younger generations can add to the effectiveness of the organization.
Daniel, how can people get ahold of you? Suppose they want to know more about this subject or engage you to help them with what’s going on in their organization? How can they reach you?
That’s a great question, Dr. Karen. First I would say they can find me through my email, which is my first name, Daniel.C.Lattimore@gmail.com. They could also find me on LinkedIn under Daniel Cruz Latimore. Dr. Karen is a connection so you can start with her.
Final Thoughts: Embracing Diversity And Fostering Connection
Absolutely and it’ll definitely be in our show notes and Cruz is Cruz in case people want to know because it’s more than one way to go up with the Cruz. What additional words of wisdom Dr. Daniel do you want to leave with my community of executive business leaders and please include any final recommendations for current and future readers of this episode. What do you want them to take away and to remember?
First, I just want to express gratitude for reading. I think oftentimes we look for the now what instead of sitting with the just what. Thank you for giving this a space and platform. I would recommend to folks to just really sit with what is the need that they’re trying to fill. If you can start there, whether it’s a self-need or a need of the organization, that will help you be able to identify what it is that you need to fill that need. Additionally, I would say to allow yourself grace in this process that it is something that we’re growing competency in. It’s not something we become fully competent in, and it’s not something that it’s too late to try. Just a willingness, some grace, and just being able to sit with self.
Thank you very much, Dr. Daniel. I think you’ve issued an invitation for people to consider what maybe they don’t consider every day. That’s an important perspective as well. We’re going to close with a reading from First Corinthians, the 12th chapter, starting with verse 15, “If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I’m not of the body?” Is it therefore not of the body? If the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I’m not of the body?” Is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing?
If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? Now God has set the members, each of them in the body, just as he pleased. If they were all one member, where would the body be? Now indeed there are many members, yet one body, and the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you.” Nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” No, much rather those members of the body that seem to be weaker are necessary. Those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor.
Our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, but our presentable parts have no need. God composed the body, having given greater honor to the part which lacks it that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another.” In a way, this is a picture of the church, and all the gifts that God has put in the church through different individual people. There’s a principle that also applies to what we’ve been talking about in terms of diversity of generations, and diversity of background in an organization. We all have a role.
We all collectively together are better together than we are by ourselves and because I’m not like you or you’re not like me, doesn’t mean we don’t have value. We all have value and when we bring it together, just what we can do. That’s what this segment is about. Think about your organization and what you can do with all the generations engaged and interacting together. All the different ethnic backgrounds engaged and working together you will be rock stars because your body is whole and not rejecting another piece of the body. Thank you for being here and we’ll see you next time.
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Spirit Wings Kids Foundation
This is Dr. Karen here and I want to share some important insights with you about Spirit Wings Kids Foundation, a 501c3 organization that’s doing wonders across the globe and especially in Uganda. I have with me Donna Johnson, who’s the founder of Spirit Wings Kids and a member of the board. She’s going to tell us about the permaculture farm that they have started. Donna, tell us all about it.
Thank you, Dr. Karen. For decades, we’ve been supporting the orphanage and family network in Uganda. In 2018, my son is a permaculturist and we had acres that we dedicated to his planting. It was just amazing. He also taught them how to do permaculture. It’s flourishing. In fact, during the pandemic, it saved lives. 203 families were fed during the pandemic. It’s such a miracle that God just called us to plant that garden at the time that we did.
Thank you so much, Donna. Thank you so much for your work in Uganda and a couple of other things I want people to know as a permaculture farm is self-contained in many ways, depending on how they’re growing the crops. You don’t have to use pest control. You don’t need fertilizer. It’s a very sustainable way to provide food for the community. That’s a blessing. If you want to be a part of this wonderful work out there, 100% of all of your donation goes to the people in Uganda to help feed them and their families. Go to SWKids.Foundation and give. Make a difference in the world. Thank you for doing so.
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